cancellation??

Re: cancellation??

I'm in the same boat except my trip starts sooner (Sept 21). My travel agent did say that tours starting in September do have the option to "transfer", although he wasn't quite sure what that means (either changing the date or changing the date and tour). He also said that tours starting in October had the option of a full refund - although in this unique situation, I think this option should be available to all. Personally, I still think Egypt is safe and I would like to go through with the trip - my only fear is a U.S. strike occurring while we're there. In this case I'm worried that Egyption extremists may start targeting foreigners/tourists.

Re: cancellation??

I'm also in the same boat along with 3 others, Egypt and Jordan are on our list to tour for 3 weeks, begining October 1st.
It would be great if we could move our tour date or location, everything is still up in the air and the last thing we want is to be on tour and war breaks out. I don't see how you can go away and enjoy your trip with this hanging over your head and when statements like this...
(From the Skye News Web Site.)
"Afghanistan's Taliban rulers meanwhile,have called on Muslims to launch a holy war if attacked by the west."

Even the Foregin office are saying to keep away from public places and keep a low profile and we are ment to be on tour.

Re: cancellation??

As has already been highlighted, the increasing tension in the middle east, with the imminent threat of American retaliation leaves both myself and my wife afraid for our lives. We are due to travel to Egypt in 2 weeks from Australia, and the Taliban exhortation for all Muslims to undertake a holy war strikes fear in our hearts. Surely imaginative traveller have a duty of care to us not to place us in potentially hostile situations, whether the threat be real or potential.

Re: cancellation??

I am part of a group of 4 people going to Egypt and Jordan in October. We all can

Re: cancellation??

Me again... in reply to all our concerns, I am a New Zealander living in England. My family are concerned like any another, back in NZ, and they are stressing for me not to go on this trip.

I ask Imaginative Traveller - If you had a loved one going to the Middle East for 1-3 weeks, would you advise them still to go?

Re: cancellation??

ALong the same lines as the above comments.

I have 2 tours booked for October, one in Egypt and one in Jordan. I think it is extremely sad that Imaginative Traveller are putting us in this situation of not giving us any options other than to loss 50% or all of our money. Although the Home Office hasn't explicitly said that we musn't travel to Jordan and Eqpyt. We all know that war is going to happen and there is a high possibility that something could happen whilst being on tour. I am scared to think what could happen to our safety. Surely Imaginative Traveller must think it is unsafe. All we want to do is to defer our tours to a later date. We would still like to travel with Imaginative Traveller BUT if we cannot get a full refund or cancel our tour until a future date, it doesn't seem too fair.

Re: cancellation??

I feel sorry for all those that booked tours to the Middle East and will not be reimbursed. I'm shocked that the Imaginative traveller can deem these countries as safe. I had a tour booked in October for China, Tibet and Nepal, due to the close proximity to Pakistan I was considering cancelling that tour. Looks like I'll be losing money too! I think the wisest thing would be for Imaginative Travelling to cancel all holidays to the region until it is clear what the situation actually is. It could be said that I'm being paranoid but to use a cliche I think it is better to be safe then sorry. Well America has declared War which can't be taken too lightly. Besides I think everyone who has booked a holiday did so to have an enjoyable time and not to have a holiday filled with doubt about ones secruity.

Re: cancellation??

I have read all of the replies and am a bit confused. Everyone seems to know of a different refund policy. Some spoke of no refund at all, while someone else said something about a 50% refund. When I talked to my travel agent, she said that I could get my trip deffered for 6 months. This is ridiculous. If war breaks out, it will take musch longer than 6 months for this all to calm down. I think a more reasonable solution would be either 1-2 year defferral or else credit towards another tour (out of the Middle East) at a later date.

Re: cancellation??

We have booked with Imaginative Traveller directly (In the UK)
They have told us that if we cancel within 14 days of the start date then we will get 50% back. If they cancel because of Force Majeure then we get nothing.
How have you got a 6 month defferal??

Re: cancellation??

Many people have contacted us to express their concern over imminent holidays and travel plans since the events of the 11th.

The policy of The Imaginative Traveller is as follows:

With the exception of certain trips to Pakistan and the Silk Road, our tours are running as normal.

We will have no hesitation in cancelling tours to other destinations if events dictate that we would be prudent to do so. At no time is it our intention to operate trips that put our clients or our staff in harm's way.

If you are booked on a tour with us you may cancel at any time but charges will be applied as described in our booking conditions.

As with so many situations, there will almost certainly be exceptions.
If you strongly feel that your case merits special consideration you can contact me directly at the following address:

chris@imtrav.co.uk

[b][email]chris@imtrav.co.uk[/email][/b]

Re: cancellation??

Hi,

I have been very interested to read all your concerns about travel Egypt.
I am travelling ot Egypt with my wife and child in October. I am not travelling with The Imaginative Traveller - they don't take children.
I have no concerns at all about my safety - obviously, I wouldn't dream of taking my loved ones anywhere dangerous.

Several of you have written words to the effect that 'everyone knows what is going to happen'.
The fact is that none of us know what is going to happen. We don't know who, we don't know where and we don't know when.

It is completely irrational to cancel travel plans under these circumstances. We are as mcuh at risk here in London as we might be anywhere else.
It seems to me, from the statement made by The Imaginative Traveller that they are acting responsibly. They are not panicking but are keeping a careful eye on the situation and amending their policy accordingly.

Jeroen

Re: cancellation??

I disagree, I don't think it is irrational it's what that individual feels comfortable with. If you have never been in a situation like this then of course there is concern, not only from the individual but also from family and friends. It doesn't make the tour any more enjoyable if there is any dought.
It's not quite the same as the IRA bombing London, you have got a country, which has had problems in the past involving extremists, and all Foreign offices admit this. I have no dought that Imaginative Traveller has our best interests at heart but what do you do.

We all just want to have a good time on our tours.

Re: cancellation??

It was hard to make the decision but I have cancelled my travel to Egypt in October. It is a lot of money to lose but you just can't put a value on life.

Re: cancellation??

Understandably this is a lively and sometimes emotional issue.
Of course everyone must make their own decision.
For me it is not my first visit to Egypt. I have many Egyptian friends and I have been there when other crises have occurred.
Because of this I KNOW that Egyptians will be going out of their way to make all tourists feel welcome.
They will go out of their way to disassociate themselves from extremists and fundamentalists.

Re: cancellation??

Ed, you are not convincing me, I smell a rat here! I booked a Middle East trip this morning with Imaginative. My Name is Tina Scanlon and I booked on the 22 Oct 2001 Jordan Connetion and Nile Safari. Now whats your name and the tour you booked on?
SGlen sorry but you are someone I never want to meet on a tour with Imaginative. I suggest you go home to Mum & Dad. You think that caus your scared you should get your money back? I made my decision and will stick with it. I paid today and am excited about going. I will not allow a forum like this to dictate to me nor will I be pressured by online sensationalists who critize a company for operating their tours in countries that our foreign office says it SAFE to travel to. You guys are wimps and should be down the Queen Vic gossiping. Tina

Re: cancellation??

A bit hard Tina but this is a forum and you are entitled to your opinion.
SGlen I do feel you are being unresonable you should make a decision and not try to use this situation, maybe you should be more sensitive.
Like you all am sicked by what has happened in the US last week. I have decided not to cancel my trip but to watch how things progress. I see that many of you seem to have inside information on where the retaliation will take place, maybe you can tell me?

Re: cancellation??

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barry:
A bit hard Tina but this is a forum and you are entitled to your opinion.
SGlen I do feel you are being unresonable you should make a decision and not try to use this situation, maybe you should be more sensitive.
Like you all am sicked by what has happened in the US last week. I have decided not to cancel my trip but to watch how things progress. Many of you seem to have inside information on where the retaliation will take place, maybe you can tell me?

---

Re: cancellation??

Shame you were unable to contribute anything meaningful to the debate Tina - have you stopped and wondered how you were able to get on a tour that has apparently been full for months? Perhaps you should read the newspaper and watch tv.
I think it's a personal thing, most people writing on this forum have concerns about their safety so it's unfair of you to attack Ed and SGlen - they were just expressing an opinion which is just what this forum is designed for.
Top tip, don't bother paying for travel insurance as it doesn't cover you for any cancellation looses due acts of terrorism! Hope you enjoy your trip!

Re: cancellation??

The last thing that I want to do is cancel my trip - in fact I've been trying to convince family members, who are pleading with me (and my wife) to cancel, that all is safe in Egypt. But one family member asked me the most poignant question in this debate: "Would you have booked the same trip after the events of September 11"? My answer, and I'm sure most others - except Tina, would be "NO". This simple fact means that this trip will not be enjoyed as originally planned. Threats, whether perceived or real, are threats nonetheless.

I'm disappointed but not surprised at the stance The Imaginative Traveller has taken. When money is involved it is difficult to be proactive instead of reactive. It will probably take an incident to occur before policies are changed. But besides money, I believe companies like this rely on a great deal of "good will" passed on through word of mouth - this is how I heard of The Imaginative Traveller. As the days go by, I'm sure a great deal of this "good will" is being lost. Considering The Imaginative Traveller's unwillingness to change policies at this volatile time, it is not likely that I would travel with them again or recommend them to friends in the future. On the other hand you will find responsible companies like KLM/Northwest Airlines who immediately updated their policies, offering refunds for flights to September 15 and credits (without penalty) for flights to October 11.

Toronto

Re: cancellation??

Hi,
I am a travel agent, based in Calgary.
As you can imagine we are not doing a lot of new business at the moment. Last week we spent all our time dealing with clients whose flights had been cancelled. This week most calls are from people who are worried about going somewhere or other.
Enough of my problems. The reason I want to speak up on this forum is just to say that we have found The Imaginative Traveller to be one of the most compassionate companies we sell.
They were one of the first to issue a clear policy after terrible events of September 11 and they have been very flexible and understanding of our situation and problems.

Betty

Re: cancellation??

It's amazing how so many people seem to have become scared of travelling.
To answer SplintersCa, my answer is "YES", I would still book the same holiday now as before Sept 11.
The events of Sept 11 were terrible, so was the massacre in Luxor in Nov 1997. I booked to travel to Egypt just after that event. I had a wonderful trip.
The hype in the American media, all designed to get us into the mood for George Junior's war, is the real culprit here.
It is shameful the way that they are manipulating everyone's emotions and deliberately trying to scare us all from travelling.
And before you all start shouting at me, I'm an American.
Imaginative Traveller are not the bad guys here.
As far as I can see they have not closed any doors, they have just said they will keep an eye on the situation and update their policy as necessary.

Jeannie

Re: cancellation??

When i first posted this note I did not think it would get such a response. I fully understand the stance the Imaginative Traveller is taking. Cancellation on my part will mean that there is a spot that they are probably not going to be able to fill (Tina, you are in the minority of people willing to book now). I am not asking for a refund as I know that that may be unreasonable on my part. However, I think that being able to get credit towards another tour or deffering this one until we know more would be a fair comprimise. As for those who think I am jumping the gun, or assuming that I know when or where retaliations will happen, it's the exact opposite. It's the fact that things are so up in the air now that has me scared. Not only are there increased probability of internal conflict with extremist, but there is the possiblity that my connecting flight to even get to Cairo will be delayed. What if I get to Cairo and have missed a significant part of the tour. Or what if we get there and the retaliation begins. Or what about the simple fact that my loved ones here will not be able to sleep until I arrive back in Canada safely. These possibilities are what have me concerned. None of us are purporting to know what will happen, it would just be nice to have a little more time to wait it out and see before we have to decide to spen three weeks in any foreign country.

Re: cancellation??

I am supposedly going on the "Sailtrek & Sinai" tour on Friday - I had finally calmed down to accept that everything would be fine until I came here and read this thread! Is anyone else going on my particular tour? Has anyone cancelled due to the situation? This was supposed to be my first independent international trip alone - and all I want is for someone to tell me what to do! Please, if any of you are going on my tour - drop me a note at cputney@gofree.indigo.ie , it would really ease my mind...

Re: cancellation??

I'm a swedish guy booked on the Sail trek & Sinai on sep 29 along with a friend. Feeling concerened about going just as you all - Wouldn't book a trip right now but don't wanna cancel just yet. If things remain as is, my guess is there will just be some more police and military at the tourist sights and a strange feeling about it all. If a retailiation takes place while there - I still think Egypt will do it's at most to keep things safe from fanatics.
But people have the right to be concerned and Imag Traveller should give opportunity to change trip.

I'm gonna continue to check the forreign office web site, Middle Easter Times: http://metimes.com and others

/Jonas

Re: cancellation??

Hello Everyone,

I will gladly take your place if anyone decides to cancel their trip!! Just let me know & I'll be there with bells on. I would never cancel a trip to Egypt....this is a country that will go out of it's way to welcome it's visitors. I fell in love with Egypt over 2 years ago & have been trying to move heaven & earth to get back....the low aussie dollar puts paid to that idea though.

Apart from the fact that Egypt is a great place & Im Trav are a fantastic company to travel with, I would hope that I was strong enough not to let a terrorist act rule my movements. Ok, we could all be hit by busses tomorrow or struck by lightning. No, I'm not making light of the situation, just stating facts.People have to realise that if & when there is another strike it may hit anywhere in the world, not just an Arabic section of the world.

If I had the money I would be on the plane tomorrow...you wouldn't see me for dust. I can understand how people may feel uncomfortable about travelling at this time & I feel sorry for those that do miss out on their trip of a lifetime.

Those that go...have a lemon juice for me & have a great time, I'll be with you in spirit.

Re: cancellation??

This is certainly a very difficult situation, with many shades of grey. Everybody has their own threshold for personal safety. Personally mine is a little higher than my wife's. She has been worked up into a somewhat paranoid state by not only the events in America, but the thoughts of family and friends (including some muslim friends who are advising us to stay well away). I would certainly NOT have booked a tour to the middle esat after recent events however. Some people seem to have missed the point...the likely target for retaliation is Afghanistan, however the call for all muslims to launch a holy war in response is the key issue. To wiilingly travel into an Arab muslim country who are known to have provided some of the terrorist hijackers doesn't appear to make a lot of sense. The bravado shown by some of the respondents would appear to be a form of sublimation to disallow the potential danger to surface to a conscious level. Having said that, the odds are likely that there will not be terrorist reprisal in Egypt, but myself and my wife are not gamblers, particularly when it comes to our lives. I wish all those who continue their plans all the best. As has been said before, I am very disappointed with the narrow stance taken by imaginative traveller but understand the commercial reality. Their intransigence however, means that we won't be using their service again, and this has been communicated to our travel agency, a large organisation involved with adventure travel and our friends/ colleagues who also can't understand their response.

Re: cancellation??

While many of you are criticising Imag Trav for it's stance on this issue, don't forget that the whole reason this forum is here is to allow you to express your opinions. They'll be reading what you write and thinking about it. I bet a lot of other companies would not let such a free randing discussion take place at all.

Jeannie

Re: cancellation??

You

Re: cancellation??

I have read with great interest the free-flowing exchange of views in this forum.
Whilst it is very disappointing that some of you think us so heartless, it is fantastic that so many of you take the opportunity to air your views here.
Anyhow, my contribution to this discussion is to let you know that (as of 18 September) The Imaginative Traveller has updated it's policy in relation to some of the destinations that have been discussed here. You'll find a link to our latest policy statement on our home page.

Cheers
Martin Dunn
Managing Director
The Imaginative Traveller

PS. I'll be travelling to Egypt myself in October.

Re: cancellation??

Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention in my last post.
I notice that some of you are concerned that if the situation gets worse and we decide to - or are obliged to - cancel tours we will charge cancellation fees and claim 'force majeure'.
We have never done this.

So far this year, as a result of separate incidents we have had to cancel tours in Nepal, Sri Lanka and currently Pakistan. In each case we could, technically have claimed it was due to 'force majeure' and charged cancellation fees.
We didn't do this.
In fact, in the history of The Imaginative Traveller I don't think we ever have.

If we have to cancel a tour we offer to transfer the bookings of affected clients to another country or departure. If none of the available alterntives is acceptable to the client then we refund in full for the land portion of the trip. The refund of airfares is at the discretion of the airline.

cheers
Martin Dunn
Managing Director
The Imaginative Traveller

Re: cancellation??

Hi,
We just read this forum and we are IN EGYPT NOW. We have been very concerned as you can all imagine. We watched TV last tuesday and all our group was frightened. We had to deal with the threats against the world the from the USA. And we dealt with our own individual concerns as to how this would develop considering where were were at this moment in time. But as the days passed and the direction of the US threats were clear we all clamed. We must tell you the Egyptians are frightened, not because of any US attack, but because they fear their livelihood will be taken away. We understand why the people like you on these forums spread your own fears across the globe and maybe not intentionally encourage but add to the panic that is already there. We don't condemn you for this but we don't understand it as the reason for you to blame this company for being afraid to travel. Had we chosen to go home, should we have asked Imaginative for a refund? There would be no logic to any argument we would have. One person in our group decided to go home and our leader went beyond the call of duty to make special arrangements for her. We as a group were shocked that this one individual got so much done for her but later that became clear to us as we got to know our leader and this company more.
Most of Egypt appears to be dependent on tourism, as you will see when you come. They are a wonderful people as shocked by the attack as you and I am. As business people in a customer oriented industry my partner and I know that we must make decisions based on the facts as they stand and not on fear or knee-jerk reactions. I commend The imaginative Traveler for allowing us all to discuss the topics and the company itself in such a public forum. They have not deleted any posts no matter how hard they appeared against them. We read this forum and see the posts and the dates. If Imaginative is experiencing anything like the panic the Thompson holidays group in Luxor experienced and then 'evecuated'! for whatever reason only they can explain, then we understand the managers post having coinsidered all sides of the coin.
And as we travel with them it fits, our leaders actions with Debbie leaving all adds up, this company is great. The staff are brilliant and very people orientated. Everyone we came into contact with respects this company and in return we get welcomed and helped in more ways than anything we expected from their brochure. We have traveled with many reputable companies like Explore and Intrepid in Asia and Europe and they do not compare in any shape or form with how secure we feel. Our leader has taken us all aside daily to update us on the situation and we would then debate it. As the days passed we no longer needed to but are still updated by him. This reassures us in many ways but to us importantly that we are being considered as adults. We are not being kept in the dark as we trek in the desert or sail on the boats. We honestly hope that you all experience this sooner rather than later. As we now near our end with our last week we wonder how we didn't find imaginative travel years ago.
From two very happy and satisfied customers we recommend Imaginative to you all and say that no matter what concerns you may have now you should have the experience we have just had and can look forward to. Everyone deserves a holiday like this, absolutely everyone.
Cheryl & Tom Spears

Re: cancellation??

Hello Cheryl & Tom,

Great to hear that you are having such a good time on your holiday. You don't realise what the Egyptian people are truly like until you there, amongst them. If you treat them with respect & dignity you will be made most welcome in their country. I still correspond with Egyptians I met over 2 years ago & am treated as family.

Of course they are frightened of losing their livelihoods, tourism is the main employer in Egypt. Those that decide to go ahead with their tours will soon realise this.

They will also realise how professional IM Trav are. Their tour leaders are very well trained & imformative & the tours are well organised.

I wondered if your tour leader was a chap called Ramy? If so you are very lucky people as he is a true gentleman & a dedicated tour leader. If so,please give him my kindest wishes. If not, you are still in excellent hands.

What tour are you on? I am glad that you were able to continue with your tour as you really would have missed the holiday of your dreams.

Wish I could be there with you. Once again have a lemon juice for me .... [img]http://www.imaginative-traveller.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Debbie Comini (edited September 19, 2001).]

Re: cancellation??

Hi, as an intro, I am an American who has traveled to several countries in the middle east, and to Egypt alone about 10 times. The last few trips were with Imtrav after some bad experiences with other tour companies. My trust is HERE, as these folks are tried and true. Almost without exception, most of my trips happened to be scheduled immediately after a terrorist attack. I am traveling to Egypt with Imtrav late this month, AGAIN.

Yes, I am going. I've learned to LIKE going after an attack for the following reasons. 1) Security is unbelievably high - you can't go anywhere without a truck load of military or police right and left.
2) There is NO ONE there! No crowds, no waiting, freedom to move at will anywhere. 3) CHEAP - everyone is desperate to make a few piasters, and will take just about anything you are willing to give them for their wares.

The Egyptian people LOVE American's and Europeans. Without the support of these countries, they would barely exist! They protect us, and are very, very glad to see us when we arrive. I've often stated that I feel much safer in Egypt than in any large America city. I even think I have mentioned New York in that statement. I rest my case on that one!

Sure, there are threats against Arab countries that are supporting America - but so far, other than Afghanastan, who does this not include? Afghanastan will have to go through a lot of territory to get to Egypt, and given the fact that they are so inept, I doubt that this will happen.

Egyptian extremist? Terrorist? They have always been there. If you are well covered in your dress, it is doubtful that they will notice you. I've been elbow to elbow with them on numerous occasions without a problem - and yes, you can spot most of them a mile away.

These are just my experiences and thoughts. The decision to go or not to go is yours. I do understand the uneasiness of the current situation. However, I have always known Imtrav to keep their fingers on everything that is happening, and they have been extremely fair in every situation. They certainly would never want to endanger their clients or employees. That I promise you.

It comes down to how much control you are going to hand over to these terrorist? They have been operating for many years, and life went on. As for me, I'm going forward with my life, just as I have in the past.

Re: cancellation??

Dear Chris,
My friend and I are scheduled to travel to Egypt and Jordan departing on Nov. 4. Our families are very upset that, as Americans, we are going to Muslim countries. We are extremely upset about the terriorist attacks on our country and do not feel safe or feel that we can have a enjoyable time on this trip. I do not understand your recent travel upset of Sept, 18th only allowing travel changes to take place up until Oct. 24th. What about the rest of us? Do you think that it will be any safer as time goes on? Do not get me wrong, I am very empathetic for the tremendous loss the airline and travel industry is experiencing. I do not want my money back. I simply want to change my travel to another tour in another part of the world at a later date. It would be appreciated by all of us if your company could be a little more flexible.

Re: cancellation??

We are constantly monitoring the situation and our policy will be updated as necessary.

Our main priority to to address the situation of clients travelling in the immediate future.
Once we have that workload out of the way we will review and decide if we need to alter our policy with regard to clients travelling at later dates.

To answer Sam's question. Yes, we do think the situation will change. At the moment we are all trying to guess what MIGHT happen. None of us know for sure.

Anyone booked for future travel who wishes to discuss their booking should make contact with their travel agent. It is not fair to your agent to cut them out of the communication loop.

Martin
The Imaginative Traveller

[This message has been edited by imtravmd (edited September 20, 2001).]

Re: cancellation??

Many of you have posted that you feel scared to go to Middle East.
I'd be much more scared if I had a man with the brain of a peanut in charge of my country with the world's most powerful army at his disposal.

Jeroen

[This message has been edited by Jeroen (edited September 20, 2001).]

Re: cancellation??

Reading so many remarks about our families concerns reminds me of my own experiences when I began traveling. The general public has a very distorted view of the middle east, and Egypt in particular. Each time I have traveled there, from the first trip to this one, virtually every member of my family expressed great concern. Had I listened to them, I would have missed out on some of the greatest experiences of my life, and meeting some of the greatest people.

Speaking of people, Jeroen, you are a little behind the times. Clinton is no longer in office, and even if he were, our President is not a dictator. He is blessed with a staff of experts in every field who are his advisors. Thank God our current President, BUSH, is not eaten up with so much ego that he thinks only he knows best. Bush DOES listen to his advisors and the America people and makes his choices WITH them.

I just heard that when recently asked about bombing Afghanastan that Bush remarked that people should hold on. That if and when that decision is made it will be extremely well thought out. He went on to say that he was not sending a multi-million dollar missile to hit one tent and a camel in the b--t. I don't know if those were his words or not (I didn't hear it personally), but given his sense of humour, they may well be. I thank God every day that neither Clinton or Gore is at the helm! THAT'S the really scary thought.

Enjoy your trip Jeroen. Maybe I will bump into to you somewhere. I'm sure it will be a great experience for your whole family, and so educational for your child. God bless you all.

Re: cancellation??

Baraka, I guess you're a Republican.
Have a look at this...
Report: President Bush Has Lowest IQ of
all Presidents of past 50 Years
If late night TV comedy is an indicator, then there has never
been as widespread a perception that a president is not intellectually
qualified for the position he holds as there is with President
GW Bush.
In a report published Monday, the Lovenstein Institute of Scranton, Pennsylvania
detailed its findings of a four month study of the intelligence
quotient of President George W. Bush. Since 1973, the Lovenstein
Institute has published it's research to the education community
on each new president, which includes the famous "IQ" report among others.
According to statements in the report, there
have been twelve presidents over the past 50 years, from F. D.
Roosevelt to G. W. Bush who were all rated based on scholarly
achievements, writings that they alone produced without aid of
staff, their ability to speak with clarity, and several other
psychological factors which were then scored in the Swanson/Crain
system of intelligence ranking.
The study determined the following IQs of
each president as accurate to within five percentage points:

Re: cancellation??

AH Jeroen, how I would love to delve deeply into this subject with you, but out of respect for this forum - a travel forum, I'll try to teather my comments.

"However" - I can't help but respond just a bit from a citizen of Arkansas, USA to a citizen(I assume) of the UK.

My remarks have far less to do with my political preferences than with the fact that Mr. Clinton and his wife governed Arkansas for 12 years. During that time he helped us to achieve the lowest poverty and educational level in the U.S. - unlike our neighbor, Texas (governed by Bush).

Clinton's appetite for power, control, and far too many "worldly pleasures" has always been common knowledge here in Arkansas. He was an embarrassment to us, and we were shocked when he made it to the White House. Once there, he embarrassed us even more. In all of Arkansas, I have found less than 5 people who admit to voting for him - and they had their own motives. I need not go into Clinton's past, as it is public record.

Your IQ list is interesting, but only to those with extreme tunnel vision. We could compile quite a list of individuals with genius level I.Q's, while in fact, many of those were babbling idiots outside of a very small realm.

Personally, I respect common sense much more than a high IQ. I would far rather have a leader with common sense, respect for his advisors, and an understanding of his people, than one whose "high IQ" is basically concentrated on satisfying his own interest, and in particular, the lower half of his anatomy. That's where I am coming from.

Changing the subject, I, as an American, would like to thank each and every one of you for the overwhelming support that America is receiving during this crisis. Sorry Jeroen, but right now - regardless of who our president might be or what you may think of him, he needs the support of all the people. This time it doesn't boil down to American's only, as the whole world is involved in this one.

Jeroen, I'll admit to being puzzled by you. Your first post was very upbeat, encouraging and positive, but you followed with a totally inappropriate and childish comment. Admittedly maybe some of my response was inappropriate as well, and if so my apologies to this forum. However, I AM an American citizen, speaking about a subject of which I am very well informed personally, and not just from what is selectively covered in the media and especially from late night TV comedy. Have you forgotten the mileage that they got out of "Bill."

You've had your say and I've had mine, so lets give these people a break and focus our attention on something fun, such as travel. I'm booked to Egypt and seriously considering adding an additional flight for an even more enjoyable occasion on other foreign soil. I do wish you and your family a most enjoyable trip.

[This message has been edited by Baraka (edited September 20, 2001).]

Re: cancellation??

Ok Baraka,
fair point.
This is not the place and it is probably not the time.
And anyhow, my knowledge of your politicians is nowhere near as good as yours.

Thanks for the good wishes,I will enjoy Egypt. By the way I'm not British. Living in London but actually Dutch.

Jeroen

Re: cancellation??

Jeroen, if you haven't been to Egypt before, you might find it absolutely addictive. So much depends on how you view a country. You can see the great beauty, color, history, adventure and friendly people, or you can see only the crowds, incredible traffic, dirt and poverty. One thing that strikes me is that everyone, regardless of their position in life, seems to have a happy attitude. I love the Egyptian people. The adventures of driving down a street amidst a herd of camel, or having a water buffalo press his nose against your bus window, while he waits at a red light, in the back of a toyota pick up, are some experiences that overwhelm me - not with fear but with facination. Egypt has furnished me with some of the best memories of my life, and is a part of my life I wouldn't trade.

I will tell you one thing. Seven years ago, I took a 3 year old child with me who screamed in her sleep all the way from New York to Cairo. Thank your lucky stars for a shorter flight! We camped out on the desert for 4 days and she looked as if she had the measles head to toe, from being bitten by mosquitoe's. I couldn't imagine why there were mosquitoe's on the desert - but there were. Please do take extra precautions with cleanliness, being very careful with water, no ice, bug repellant (which seldom work), and keep a big supply of disinfectant wipes for hands. Don't eat anything that isn't cooked, but DO enjoy it all. A big hug to that child who will remember this the rest of their life.

Re: cancellation??

Along with many others, I just finished watching Bush's statement to congress. It has me much more hesitant about going on my trip to Egypt in two weeks. I have read all the responses to this forum and wonder if his comments will change some minds. I too have been to the Middle east before and had a wonderful time. Although this would be my first time in Egypt, I have no doubt that I would be warmly welcomed by the vast majority of people as has been confirmed by the many people on this forum. What I am afraid of now if Bush's finger pointing to Egypt. He said basically
This group (the terrorists) and its leader Usama bin Ladin -- are linked to
many other organizations in different countries, including the Egyptian
Islamic Jihad and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan.

How will this statement stirr up the few fundamentalist groups who are in Egypt right now. This uncertaintly scares me. Does Imaginative Travbeller believe that these minority groups will be a threat to tourist?

Re: cancellation??

Like Tina a few days back, I smell a rat here.
How is it that almost all the people trying to persuade us not to visit Egypt are unregistered? They may as well be anonymous!

I can't help thinking it is pretty unreasonable for people who have no connection with Imaginative Traveler to come on an try and persuade others not to travel.
Sure the forum is open to all but I'm far more interested in hearing from fellow Imaginative Travelers than from scaremongers who may even be working for a competing company.

Tom
Leaving for Jordan tomorrow.

Re: cancellation??

thanks Baraka
it's not my first visit, but I'm sure the young one will have a ball

Jeroen

Re: cancellation??

I've read these posts with interest. Earlier this year I travelled to Jordan with Imaginitive Traveller, and for the last two years have visited Luxor in Egypt with another tour operator. I wish I were going again soon - the people, the hospitality, the history and the landscapes in these countries are incredible and for me right now, nowhere else in the world comes close. I am planning my next trip to Egypt early next year, and until (and if) the current situation makes that trip absolutely impossible, I still intend to do so. Life goes on.

Bear in mind the terrorist attack in Luxor a few years ago. The people of Luxor were devastated by the attack, not only because of the effect on their local economy, but because of the deaths of the tourists who they saw as their guests. The local people took to the streets after the attack to demonstrate against these terrorists. The security in Luxor and all over Egypt is now very high and I would imagine with the recent events that will be especially the case. They cannot risk another attack and would do all they could to prevent one - tourism is their livelihood. I recently spoke to a resident of Luxor who said the effects from the last attack are still being felt.

I would urge anyone currently booked on a tour to Egypt, Jordan or any country in the Middle East which Imag Traveller says it is safe to travel in to go. Of course it is natural to be concerned, but we have been fed so many stories about the Middle East and its volatile nature in the past that any situation at all out there has us immediately imagining the worst of the fundamentalist factions, which do not represent the majority of the population. I too felt that way before my first trip out there, but exposure to the reality has made me think twice about that stereotype. If the foreign office tells us it's safe, I'll go with their opinion. Who knows when and if that advice will change - and until then we should take every opportunity to experience this amazing region first hand. I, for one, will get back there as soon as I possibly can.

[This message has been edited by suzanne (edited September 21, 2001).]

Re: cancellation??

now that Bush has pointed at terrorists in Egypt does this not cause enough concern to persuade everyone that tourists should not be in this area of the world.
Anyone wishing to go to Egypt now is not going as a tourist but rather as a curiosity seeker that may not be able to tell their tale.

Re: cancellation??

Now,

What a load of bunkum....if I were going to Egypt it would be to visit a country I love & to visit people who are important to me. I would also be visiting Arabian Horse studs in Egypt & hopefully Jordan. How can that possibly seen as " a curiosity seeker" ?????

Before you make a statement about other peoples motives I suggest you think alittle more before you shoot your self in the foot & perhaps " not be able to tell the tale". Do not pretend to be all knowing, this smacks of arrogance & rudeness.

The media has also stated that terrorists are here in Australia, do you suggest I stay home & not go to work or have a life....just in case??? I think not. In my work as a nurse I have seen & had to do things that I don't particularly enjoy. Why should I stop doing something I do enjoy & have worked my butt off to do just because someone suggests I am a " curiosity seeker"???????? Do you really think that I would fly from Australia to Egypt( a flight that costs thousands of Aussie $), then pay for my tour just so I could have a birds eye view of what terrorists may or may not be up to??? I don't slave at my job to throw my money away like that!

To suggest that all Muslims are the same as these torrorists is sheer stupidity....remember that Hitler was a Christian.......does that mean all Christians have Nazi tendencies?????

To those that decide to go, have a great time...have confidence in Im Trav. Wish I could be there with you.

Re: cancellation??

Well NOW (UNregistered), I have to agree with Debbie in that this is an absolutely absurd statement.

The United States has very close relations with Egypt, and I feel certain that there is no threat to our friends. Egypt is strongly against terrorism, and terrorism is against Egypt! In the past, terrorism has done all it can to harm the country through its tourism trade. As a result, Egypt's military and police forces are intent on seeking out and destroying their nests. Don't judge the goings on in Egypt by a handful of terrorist that might be there. I can assure you that when they are found, they are destroyed.

As it so happens, we have an Egyptian Military officer in our family (in-law), who was directly involved in anti-terrorism actions. Believe me, Egypt puts a lot of effort and manpower in to the elimination of terrorism, and their treatment isn't as "nice" as it would be here in the states.

Today you will see fundamental Muslim's throughout Egypt. I've seen many on each of my trips. I've been close enough to these people often enough to believe that these people are not a threat. Mind you, I wouldn't want to be married to one, but driving and shopping side by side is no problem.

People need to make up their own minds about what they will do and not do. Imaginative Traveller has a very reasonable statement on this website, and are considerate enough to take all personal contacts on a case by case basis. If everyone would take the time to read this, it would be a lot of help.

To date, our governments are NOT advising us against travel to Egypt. This will be one of the few times I will have gone when it wasn't against government advice. I've booked when my local travel agency advised against it. When I booked my airline ticket, the airlines read me a VERY lengthly warning before they took my money. I went - saw NO problem, and had a great time. My bet is that most anyone who is familiar with Egypt would do the same thing.

Frankly, my hat is off to Imaginative Traveller for their tolerance of some of these posts. I certainly respect concern, as does the good people of Imtrav' but I agree with Tom that some of these posts read more like a "competitor." Through the years, I have watched this company grow by leaps and bounds, and winning prestigous awards within the trade. I now use them exclusively because I know I can trust them. Maybe the reputation they have earned as a result of their openness and honesty is bothering their competition. Just my opinion....

Re: cancellation??

My wife and myself would like to thank Imaginative Traveller for giving us the opportunity to transfer from our original booking in Egypt. I have read with interest the conflicting views/ merits about travelling through the region. Everyone has a different threhold: we just felt that there was enough concern to warrant transferring to another destination, and my wife's parents were threatening to leave her a widow if I didn't! Our concerns were re-inforced by friends in the consulate in Cairo who have told their relatives to cancel their upcoming trip. They qualified this by saying that there has been no overt change in any way, but that they were concerned about the possibilities.
We too congratulate IT on conducting this forum and not censuring any exchange. I am sure we will enjoy our new destination and travel with IT just as much, and we wish all those going through the Middle East a safe and enjoyable journey.

Re: cancellation??

I agree with the person who posted as NOW. It is interesting reading everyone's postings, re: their opinions. Some people have the good sense and manners to make their views known in an non - offensive way, while others seem over-bearing and immature. The last time I checked, at least up until now, we are still a democracy, and hopefully a civil one. I am attaching this article I came across a few days ago. I know this list will wax and wane. However, it is interesting where Egypt stands(look at the bottom of the list)as of a few days ago!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/features/stories/s370837.htm

International community - who is for, who is
against US retaliation?

US President George W Bush is trying to rally a global coalition for military
retaliation for the terrorist attacks in America last week.

US officials have pointed to an Arab connection to the attacks, adding that a
coalition should include Muslim states.

Retaliation is likely to focus on Afghanistan, which hosts the prime suspect,
Saudi-born militant Osama bin Laden.

The following is a summary of the international community's stance on Thursday
morning (AEST):

STRONG OR SPECIFIC OFFERS OF SUPPORT

Australia: Said 295 troops stationed in United States have permission to deploy
with US forces if needed.

Belgium: Foreign Minister Louis Michel said he would send troops to help in
US military retaliation.

Britain: America's closest ally - Prime Minister Tony Blair pledged to stand
"shoulder to shoulder" with Bush and has worked to bring less enthusiastic
European states on board.

Canada: Foreign Minister John Manley said Canada would "unambiguously"
join US military action.

India: Offered to allow US military forces to use its facilities if needed. The
country has a large Muslim minority. Diplomats say Washington is unlikely to
need Indian bases.

Israel: US sources say Israel is giving vital intelligence support on Islamist
militants. US Secretary of State Colin Powell said the US sees no role for Israel
in any military response. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon refused to make
concessions to the Palestinians to help US recruit Arab and Muslim nations for
its anti-terror alliance.

Italy: Said it would join a military response and was ready to deploy troops and
aircraft if asked.

Kuwait: Freed from Iraqi occupation by a US-led coalition in 1991, offered all
possible help.

Spain: Offered its air bases for any retaliatory strikes; promised to act "without
any reservations".

QUALIFIED OR LIMITED SUPPORT

Bangladesh: One of the most populous Muslim states, pledged support.
Yesterday, US embassy sources said they were awaiting a response from
caretaker government to a request for possible use of airspace and port facilities.
Bangladeshi officials said issue was too important to decide quickly.

France: President Jacques Chirac said France would be "totally supportive", but
Prime Minister Lionel Jospin said it was up to Paris to decide how to help
retaliate and Defence Minister Alain Richard warned against provoking
instability.

Germany: Defence Minister Rudolf Scharping suggested in vague terms on
Monday that Germany could participate in a military response. Foreign Minister
Joschka Fischer earlier expressed caution and recalled that Parliament has last
word.

Indonesia: Megawati Sukarnoputri, president of world's biggest Muslim nation,
offered unspecified help. Other top officials have warned US not to make Islam a
scapegoat.

Japan: Struggling to reconcile its post-World War II constitutional neutrality
with loyalty to its key American ally. Criticised in 1991 for supporting US-led
war to oust Iraq from Kuwait without committing even a token force to the Gulf.

Jordan: Said it would be at the forefront of countries ready to join a coalition.
Largest opposition party issued edict on Sunday banning any Muslim
participation in such a coalition.

NATO: Invoked mutual defence clause for first time in its history, opening the
way for a possible collective response. But individual members of the North
Atlantic Treaty Organisation have expressed reservations.

Pakistan: Afghanistan's western neighbour, previously backed Taliban
government. Offered full cooperation with US and sent delegates to Afghanistan
to try to persuade Taliban to hand over bin Laden but yet to decide on specific
help. A Muslim nation. Fears Taliban attack or civil unrest if it helps US.

Palestinian Territories: President Yasser Arafat offered to place all his
capabilities at the service of the US and urged Arab states to join a coalition. On
the defensive after some Palestinians were shown on television welcoming the
attacks.

Russia: President Vladimir Putin has pledged support but urged thorough
investigation first. Defence officials have said Moscow will help with intelligence,
but military participation is unlikely. Security Council secretary Vladimir
Rushailo said yesterday it was too early to determine whether ex-Soviet states
could allow the use of bases and air space.

Saudi Arabia - King Fahd offered support and cooperation to its key ally but
stopped short of spelling out practical help on offer. Gulf source said country
ready to share intelligence.

Syria: Has expressed strong support but earlier this year failed to follow
through on commitment to United States.

Tajikistan: Borders Afghanistan. Has offered unspecified help but says it has
not yet received a formal request.

Turkey: Has said it is willing to support Washington. Not clear what role it
would be asked to play beyond intelligence gathering. Turkish air bases could be
used.

United Arab Emirates: Has said it was reviewing its ties with the Taliban and
would help in "any possible way". Also called for immediate NATO move to
fight terrorism and stressed that success of such a move would hinge on a just
solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Other Gulf Arab States: Are likely to link support for any US military action
to extent of US pressure on Israel.

Uzbekistan: Borders Afghanistan. Said it is ready to discuss cooperation but
that it was too early to comment on possible use of its bases.

NEUTRALITY

Iran: Iran condemned the attacks but said punishing its neighbour Afghanistan
might cause a human catastrophe. Canadian newspaper said senior Iranian
officials had asked Canada to tell Washington Iran would not condemn targeted
retaliation against those responsible.

Sweden: Foreign Minister Anna Lindh has said country does not want to join
NATO but is reviewing its neutrality.

United Nations: Security Council has expressed "readiness to take all
necessary steps to respond to the terrorist attacks" but this falls far short of
formally authorising any military response which would require another
resolution.

OPPOSITION

China: Has said it is ready to join the US superpower in fighting "terrorism"
but warned that military intervention would only "aggravate terrorism and
violence".

Egypt: Key US ally in Middle East. President Hosni Mubarak said on Monday
it was too early to talk of an alliance against "terrorism" and the United States
should think twice before taking military action that would kill civilians.

Iraq: A possible target along with Afghanistan. Accused the United States of
terrorism itself and said the attacks were carried out by American dissidents.