Look I know you regulars will get onto me about how 'safe' the countries are and how you got no harrassment.....but from what I read you have not done group tours or seem have a connection with this company.
So I want to ask all if it is safe for a woman. I have friends who did Egypt and Morocco and got nothing but trouble. Yeah Yeah! they dressed accordingly and were with a male so thats that argument out the door.
Checking round I heard of harrassment from the hotel staff and blatant advances of the felucca crews, not sure what company they traveled with. We wanted to do the treking tour on this site Beyond the pyramids but our concerns are many. Our agent said not to worry, but shes never been to Egypt. We decided against Morocco simply because our friends had no holiday at all with the unvited and endless attention.
We are both graduates and are not the kind of women to not take heed of local culture and traditions (we can read) but it seems no matter what one does, as women its part of the holiday tour. Anyone experienced this or anyone feel the same?
Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
I returned this week from a middle East tour with Imaginative and I can perfectly understand the concerns you haVE.
Myself and my assigned roomate from Holland both in our twenties were firstly amused by the stares and charm. In Israel it was just another modern country with no problems, Jordan men were polite and articulate.
Then in Egypt it just got out of hand. Our tour leader was wonderful but we couldn't expect him to be with us all the time. And the moment we left the group for shopping or visits to museums we were targets. We had our rear ends touched every time we visited a market. They would take great pains to cross to where we stood so they could brush up against us and touch us. Breasts are the main target. It doesn't matter what color/shape/size/age you are.
And yet they never touched their own women in fact treated them with respect. Something we feel we did not receive from the Egyptians. I did enjoy my tour and can speak highly about the Amy boat staff, BR FAR THE HIGHLIGHT OF THE TRIP. But ask me about the egyptian men and I change my tune fast. Beware and be alert at all times.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
I will be taking the Beyond the Pyramids tour this May and altough I am aware that this type of harassment can be a problem I am as mentally prepared as possible to grin and bare it.
I would like to hear of other womens experiences in Egypt.
I recognize that as a foreigner in a different culture I will have be tolerant as I'm sure the Egyptians have alot to tolerate from us tourists. But any information about how to effectively and politely refuse such advances and how to minimize them would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Christine
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
In reply to the above posts.
I travelled to Egypt alone last March. Yes I had some males approach me but no physical contact. On the whole I was treated with respect. I walked down streets on my own day or night without much stress at all.(Much less than when I had to walk down a Sydney street at night.)I spent a week in Egypt prior to my tour & at times I was alone. During this time I shopped alone, walked down streets (day & night) & generally had a good time.
I made the attempt to learn the language (this seems to please the egyptians no end)& showed respect for the culture & customs. I dressed with shoulders & knees covered.
If I was being hassled I just used "la" (no) or "myah salaama" (good bye), this seemed to work well. At no time was I hassled by any member of staff at any of the Hotels.
I loved Egypt & it's people & will not hesitate to return. I toured with IT & will use them again & would recommend them to anyone.
Yes, the locals treat their women with the utmost respect & western women are treated as fair game. But it is up to US to show that not all western women are fast & easy!! By dressing modestly & our moral actions.
Please do not be put off visiting this beautiful country & it's people. I have made friends in Egypt that I feel I will have forever & hope that I will be able to return for many more holidays in years to come.
Friends of mine visited Egypt last September, a group of 6 women. Only once were any of them really hassled. They had a great time & are hoping to do a return visit one day.
If I can be of any assistance please let me know.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Having been to Egypt on a tour it is true you are safe within the group but not alone. I disagree totally with the other person who said thinks we should "GRIN AND BARE IT" this is an insult. No man should be allowed to touch me only because I am a foreigner visiting his country. It is not amusing and is no flattery at all.
I regret to say that these perverts are continuing this practice because many of you female travelers 'grin and bare it'
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Thank you to those who responded to our post.
What I gain from this information is to stay to a group of people and all will be well. Our issue was that our friend was on a group tour. Christine is right, and a topic we had not considered. The Egyptian people also have to put up with us.
I am at work now so will return later to address the topics listed. Thank you all
Kate & (Sally)
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
My comment that I was prepared to grin and bear it was not in anyway intended to mean that I think it is acceptable that women have to deal with this kind of harrassment anywhere. Or than anyone else should grin and bear it, that's my decision for myself.
However I am aware that as a woman travelling I may be harrassed and I have the option not to travel to countries where this is a problem. Since I have decided to go I have to be prepared to tolerate this in such a way as to be able to enjoy the priveledge of being able to travel within a foreign culture really for the pure purpose of fun and leisure. Which really is a great privilege.
And I also have the responsibility of finding out how to make my presence as little intrusive as possible and hopefully by this measure to minimize any problems or conflicts.
I hope to get more people talking about this subject. I think there is a great exchange of ideas going on here.
Christine
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
I enjoyed reading the forum and find the subject facinating. I applaud this company for allowing discussion of this matter on a public forum and encouraging it's clients to get involved. My husband and I are heading to Egypt with Imaginative travel in the spring and we are very excited about the prospect of this trip. I have always been someone who reads on the country I visit. I have taught my two children to respect others and their views and lifestyles. When travelling I feel it is MY personal responsibility to understand and appreciate the culture I am about to experience. Once I undertsand it in part I can avoid certain mistakes and misunderstandings that are likely to happen had I not done so.
I encourage everyone to read and ask questions, no matter how vague or innocent or nieave they may seem. This subject is important for women who are travelling alone or in groups and is necessary for the peace of mind of all tourists to this region of the world.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Christine please do not take my reply as an attack on you or your opinion.
I have seen first hand fellow female travellers flaunt themselves as most did not understand the 'attention ' factor. *Client* hit the nail on the head, no matter what you look like, they will try. And it gets tiring and annoying and downright irritating. Day after day, walking with my head down to avoid eye contact Oh!. This was not how I wanted to see this country. I can't suggest ways of stopping this, but can suggest that you do not ever go out alone anywhere. Make sure your room mate or a member of the group goes with you. As most will be in the same pot it's very easy to get together with others for a day out of shopping.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Yeah, I know how irritating such constant attention can be. Although I have not encountered it anywhere I've been on vacation, I have worked in a mining camp where I was the only women in the company of 40 men for an extended period of time and I know how tiring constant unwanted attention can be. Even if it's nothing more than stares and comments.
I think my poor spelling may have caused some confusion, I'm not intending to flaunt myself but rather to be as tolerant as I can be, try to have a sense of humor about things, be as modest as I can out of respect for the culture I am visiting and find a firm but polite way to make it clear that I'm not interested in being approached or bothered.
I agree with Debbie that if we want to be treated with respect as women travellers we have to start by behaving in appropriate ways. This may include having to keep our eyes lowered. I met a few arab women living in Holland who were having trouble adjusting to the fact that they were required to make eye contact with people in job interviews etc. in their new country as this was something that showed great disrespect for authority where they came from.
This forum is a great chance to learn and prepare myself for what to expect and what my responsibilities are to prevent problems.
Thanks to everyone for there input.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
I hope that no-one is put off travelling to Egypt, due to the minority of it's population. I found Egypt a delightful place & won't hesitate to return to the place I now regard as a second home. ( I have only been lucky enough to visit once....my first overseas trip by the way.) I am not an employee of IT , but as I enjoyed my tour with them...I continue to sing their praises.
I met some wonderful people in Egypt. You must remember that WE are the outsiders not the Egyptians. We have to make allowances & adjust our customs to try & fit in . If you do this you will have a much more enjoyable visit, isn't that what it's all about??
You know Australian men have got pretty bad reputations too?? I have some awful things said to me by men in my own country....I bet most of you have also.....be honest. Egypt is an Islamic culture where women have their place....which isn't travelling across the world on their own or with their boyfriends. We have to respect the culture & customs of the countries we want to visit. How many times have you criticised foreign visitors to your home country?? It happens alot here in Australia....why can't they learn to speak English? ....so & so Asians etc etc. I am no racist but I hear these things said all the time. But I bet Australia needs the tourist dollar almost as much as Egypt does.
Please ....just enjoy your holiday, but use common sense in your dress & attitude. If you pay for your holiday & change your mind about going.....just let me know & I will gladly take your place!!!!
The Koran (Islamic "bible")believes that women should be heard by their voices....not by the sight of their bodies. I sometimes feel that some of this belief wouldn't be a bad thing here in Australia.
Take care everyone....& have a great holiday...wish I was going!!!
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
You are all talking about Egyptian men who are notorious in the ME for "looking" at foreigners, a heinous sin!
In countries such as Jordan and Syria, it is not so bad. Don't judge "Arab men" (the topic) by the Egyptians.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Well in a perfect world no one would judge another. But this board shows that concern is there and many have experiences of (Arab)men. Should we judge Americans by the behaviour of their president?
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Nor should we judge all Egyptian men on the few who behave in the above mentioned manner. There are Egyptian men who are AMAZED that this happens. You will find the Egyptian people honest & open hearted IF you are willing to open yours & treat them in the same manner.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Many times over many years of involvement in Egypt foreign female travellers have told me with pride of their visits to jewellery shops where they picked up a ring or whatever for just the price of a kiss.
These are normal everyday pleasant generally sensible women, but what are they thinking? They are certainly not thinking about the best intrests of the next woman to visit the shop.
It is unfair to place all blame on local men for unwanted advances.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
I agree Johnny,
it is up to WE tourists to present ourselves in a high morals fashion. Until all female tourists do this we will always have problems. I had very little trouble whilst in Egypt & I often walked around on my own.( sometimes at night)
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Like it or not Women in Arab societies are second class citizens. Women prefer sons and not daughters and MEN have the last word in the family. this is their way, their culture. Its not for us to say they must change. We do not fare any better in the west. Black and white live in harmony in the Arab worlds. In the west we have much to learn from all cultures as we have lost our way totally.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Aly,
This is not totally true with the younger Egyptian men. I have made friends with an Egyptian family.....she would like their next child to be female & he doesn't care, however he thinks it would be nice if they had a female child to please his wife.
The only changes I see is that we have to conduct ourselves in an appropriate manner & dress.
We certainly shouldn't be paying for jewellery with a kiss.......that isn't just the male Egyptians fault........there had to be a second party involved in the kiss!!!
Again I ask have you never had a male in your own country make "suggestive" remakes....or tell you what he'd like to do with you??..............Be honest
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Gosh this is a lot of reading here. As someone who just returned from doing a three week tour of Jordan, Egypt and Israel I have a few words to say on this subject.
I listened to my group leader in the briefing with regards to travel and customs in the Middle east and a special note as we were going to be in Egypt during a special holiday. I found it enlightening and very informative. In actual fact i was shocked as never before on any group tour I have done was I so well informed about the social and cultural aspects of a country/region by a tour company. I had read the liturature supplied before I left and this matter was not on my mind. I had no trouble at all in Jordan or israel and none at all in Egypt. I did hear the tales from one or two of the group on their travels to the bazzars, but none were shocking and no one had a bad word to say about the people we came into contact with.
I had a great trip and maybe we were shielded by the group leader or by being in a group but I found everyone welcoming and smiling. Something I found I missed when i came home...
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
It's great to hear that I can expect such expertise from my tour guide when I get to Egypt in May. And also nice to hear from someone who had no problems while travelling there. It will be my first trip outside of Europe and North America and so I am both enthusiastic and a little nervous.
Any one else with good or bad experiences I'd love to hear about them.
Christine
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
When I travelled to Egypt in March '99, I had never been overseas before & had never travelled with any tour company before. As stated above, I felt safer walking about on my own at night in Egypt than what I have in my own country.
Yes I had some things said to me by a few Egyptian males, no physical contact. But I've had a lot worse said to me by males right here in my home country.
I must repeat that if you visit Egypt with an open heart & mind you will get on very well. The Egyptian people are the most generous & friendly I have ever met.......just give them a chance.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
I find it difficult to agree with Aly, partly because I'm not sure what point he/she is making.
Women are not second class citizens in Arab societies. There is a strong gender distinction of roles and responsibilies, but it could be argued that it is probably no worse in general than in the UK or US right up until the 50s. Women loose out in some areas, but rule with a rod of iron in others.
Also the statement about black and white living together in harmony in the Arab world is complete tosh! The devisive issue in the arab world might not be skin colour, but it is more than made up for with religious divisions. Don't let your dissatisfaction with your own society lead you to romantic notions about others.
I also think that some of the generalisations inherrent in the comments in this forum are not helpful. Even down to the title! Surely everywhere in the world there are people who will for whatever reason exhibit wanted or unwanted behaviour.
In any particular country if you run into more of the former you have a good impression of the people, if you run into more of the latter you have a bad impression.
Take people as they come. If you have a bad run and only meet assholes be philosophical - next time round you might meet excellent people.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
While I understand your reservations about generalist statements, the title of this forum was based on a specific question by the women who started it. As a woman travelling anywhere, and sometime even walking down your own street, safety has to be a concern.
There is no point denying that the middle east has a reputation (deserved or not) for being a difficult place for women to travel. This forum provides a way for people to gain more information and although you see alot of generalist statements I have seen several people offering different points of view all of which are helpful to me in preparing for my trip.
My general feeling after having read and participated in this forum is that I will have a great time and I don't expect any major problems. I have also gained some valuable information about how to behave to prevent any problems.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Hello Christine,
I'm pleased to see that you haven't been frightened off. When you arrive in Egypt go with an open mind. Yes there will be rubbish in the streets & yes, you may have a some idiot approach you. But I feel the culture & history of Egypt is so wonderous that I could put up with alot more.
I feel if you go with the right attitude & follow with sensible dress, then you will have a great time. I know I did. Egypt has captured my heart & I met some lovely people there.
Enjoy yourself & if you think I can help in any way just ask
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
The post to which this reply is directed has been ****DELETED****as it does not conform to the guidlines of The Imaginative Traveller forums.
*********The reply is as follows:**********
As you have such a strong opinion, perhaps you could provide people with answers to their questions???
Just because I am willing to assist travellers with their enquiries you think I should be knocked down???
Perhaps you can't count either as I make it 18 posts by other parties , so I don't see how "half have DC".
I didn't realise there was a limit to the number of replies a party can make??? Oh I forgot, I'm just a "stupid tourist".
I await your reply with great anticipation!!!
[This message has been edited by Debbie Comini (edited April 04, 2000).]
[Note: This message has been edited by Marty]
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
The Imaginative Traveller began these forums for travellers interested in the destinations we offer. It has become a meeting place for potential travellers and past travellers of our tours. The recent discussions on many topics have been encouraging in the content and interest shown by posters.
These forum are Not for those who would like to abuse others or attempt to change the concept by way of personal attack or condescending statements towards other posters. If this is your intention then you are NOT welcome here.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion no matter what, however a personal opinion can be written without attacking others who oppose or differ in theirs. We welcome all posters past, present and future who want to learn and share their travel experiences through our forums. We thank you for joining in and value your visits and participation. Rest assured we would not tolerate any posts that go outside of our guidelines on this forum.
Marty Garrett
The Imaginative Traveller
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
As a guy I just got back from an independent trip to Iraq, Iran, Jordan and Egypt. I found not one incident of inappropriate behaviour by anyone, male or female. Until I got to Egypt that is. It was not as strict as Iraqw or Iran and too cold in Jordan to sunbath or stroll without a coat. In Luxor and Aswan I saw tourists dress in such a way that it made me stand and stare. From Russian to French and italian, all worn tops and shorts that obviously showed their ignorance of the local religion and the culture.
ALL travel companies should be made by law to supply information to all their passengers of the country they are visiting. They should print how to behave, what is and is not acceptable.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
My 18 year old daughter and myself just got back from Egypt. Yes the men were friendly as are other men from other countries entrigued by other nationality women. They all commented on how beautiful my daughter was and that if I could bring her back in the evening to party with them. Several even asked if I could bring them back to my country to marry her. A stern NO was all that was needed. Everytime they chanced a touch we were prepared just as we are in other countries. If you find these type of men offensive and do not want to keep your cool then I suggest you visit your own country only. After all is said and done ...these men are friendly and curious and do know what NO means if you just say it. To be honest, we had no problems that we couldn't solve. Go and enjoy thier culture but do dress very appropriately-(as this is the key cover your shoulders, below the knee and med. to darker colors seem to work as well) and keep a No in your vocabulary.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Its been interesting reading all these replies. I did two ImTrav tours in Egpyt/Middle East in 1991, and then spent another week in Cairo by myself at the end of that time. Yes, it could get annoying having all that attention, yes, some travellers bring it on themselves through what they wear and how they behave, yes, Egytian men can be persistent, but usually a firm 'no' and a bit of common sense is all you need. The thing I found hardest was being accused of being rude when I refused to answer a question or talk to someone - don't fall for this, go about your business with a purpose and if you don't want a conversation, don't have one. Say 'no thanks' (a good phrase to learn in Arabic!) and then walk away. Not once did I get groped, and I think a lot of that had to do with wearing baggy trou and sloppy joe TShirts and being aware of my surroundings. PLease don't let any of this put you off your trip, it is such a small part of what you will see and do in this amazing country.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
I agree with Cindy. I was on two ImTrav tours of Middle East in 1991 and also spent some time by myself. Yes, you will be hassled, yes, you will get sick of it. Dress in baggies, learn 'no thanks' in Arabic, use it whenever you need it and MEAN IT! Say it and then walk away, no more discussion to be entered into if you don't want to. There are a few good expressions you can use in Arabic to make it clear that you are to be left alone - find a phrase book and memorise them, and don;t be afraid to use them! Ignore it if the men who hassle you accuse you of being rude, and just go about your business. And above all, enjoy your trip - beleive me, any hassles you will have will be laughed about afterwards! Egypt is such an incredible country, don't let the hassles (or worrying about possible hassles) spoil it for you...
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
I found this forum thread while doing a search. I am about to travel the Middle East with a friend. There is a diverse contribution here that has read well. I wonder if any recent travelers have reports on the treatment of women in that part of the world.
Becky (CA)
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Use common sense regarding moderate dress, however, this may not protect you from some situations due to the difference in culture. In spite of wearing baggy clothes I was harassed in the market, propositioned by a young man in a mosque and hotel staff. If travelling alone in a cab, always sit in the back seat. You might have your leg massaged while the driver moves the stickshift otherwise. If you are bothered, be firm in order to discourage any further harassment. It stops right there. But ladies, don't feel as though you are the only ones being harassed. I looked for "help" by chumming around with an English rugby bloke. Funnily enough, he was being hit on by men too!
However, Egypt is a wonderful country full of adventure and well worth the trip. If you look out for your safety, this behaviour is a nuisance and no more than that! Sure makes for some interesting stories....Don't be put of...
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Hey Aphrodite in one forum you is off on holiday asking questions. Here you dish-out advise on the same place you just about to travel! Are you a staff member trying to be a passenger?
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
No, I am not a staff member of the Imaginative Traveller, although I do work in the travel business in Canada and have had the opportunity of travelling to Egypt once before. I enjoyed the Middle East so much that I plan on returning this fall to explore Egypt in greater depth, and Israel & Jordan as well!
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
I read an article in our Sunday paper that described Egypt as one of the safe countries. But went on to list the actual abuse that women go through at the hands of men. It highlighted one young girls plight, married at 14 and pregnant at 15. She was 24 when interviewed and now has eight children. Her husband owns two acres of land and their three oldest children are all working full time in a carpet factory. She related her beatings at the hands of her husband and now on going abuse from her eldest son. She was not educated and while unhappy, she accepts her lot in life but understands the hardships and the unfairness of her position compared to that of the male population.
Worth thinking about.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Where as the above is something that I feel should never happen, it isn't just confined to Egypt or any Muslim country. It even happens in so called civilised Western countries. I have seen the heartache & despair that this behaviour causes right here in Australia......by Anglo saxon Australians ( among others). There are men, no matter what religion or heritage, who will use their women & children as workhorses, breeders & something to kick around at their pleasure. Please do not be fooled into assuming otherwise. There are even women who will torture their families...do not think that there are not women capable of cruelty....
No I do not find unwanted interest flattering or easy to deal with, however if I want to visit these countries then I must accept that the locals may have customs I may not like or agree with. I have had some terrible things said to me by men in my own country & I bet if you are really honest with yourself you have too.
Due to TV & some tourists who dress in an inappropriate manner, some Egyptian men have made the assumption that Western women are fast & easy. It is up to US as travellers to educate them otherwise, by our behaviour & dress.
Perhaps this post will make me unpopular....so be it. I met some true Gentlemen whilst in Egypt & cannot let it be assumed that all Muslim men are from the same mould.
[This message has been edited by Debbie Comini (edited September 22, 2000).]
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
I appreciate your open-mindedness about Egyptian treatment toward women but no real comparison can be made between Egyptian law and behavior and that in western contries. To give you but two examples: female circumcision (mutilation) is still widely practiced and until the last two years, a man could not be charged with rape if he married his victim. Women are often encouraged to marry their rapists because of the "shame" they have brought upon themselves and their families by being raped.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
I'm afraid you have missed my point. We in Western Society can not condemn others until we have cleaned up our own backyards. Thousands of women each year are beaten by husbands /boyfriends ( some have broken limbs blackened eyes or are even killed)& no one thinks twice about it. Rape victims who take their case to court are made to feel that They were the one at fault.
If we want to travel to these countries & also want to improve the plight of the women in these countries, then by OUR actions, dress & manner we can hope to slowly but surely bring improvment for all.
Remember to go with an open mind & sense of humour. Be thoughtful of your conduct & dress.
But most of all, if you are visiting Egypt enjoy it's History, culture it's people.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
It seems that Cath's post has moved the discussion from Arab men's behaviour to foreign women to Egptian men's treatment of Egyptian women and a comparison of this with treatment of women by men in western cultures.
Debbie makes some excellent points and is being made to look like an apologist for Egyptian men and muslim culture, just because she notes that there are wife beaters and rapists in ALL societies.
CATH
If this woman was pregnant at 15 and is now 24, this means she is being beaten by her 8 or 9 year old son!
If she has 8 kids, she had more than one a year, which although possible is going some.
Do you question the acuracy of this article at all?
JOAN
Female circumcision is illegal in Egypt.
Until recently a man in the UK could not be charged with raping his wife either.
Women & men in all countries have always and continue to be encouraged or forced into marriage to avoid family shame.
You can compare legal systems and cultures of countries. I think you should avoid assuming that yours has the moral upper hand.
I'm not saying all is perfect in the muslim world. It's not, but it shouldn't be the target as if similar problems do not exist elsewhere.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
To Johnny- While circmcision is illegal, it is still widely practiced and forced upon young girls. To Debbie - I agree that by our behavior we can set an example to the men and to the women also. But I also believe that everything is not relative. We cannot excuse extreme behavior, i.e., banning the education of girls in Afganistan, for example, by saying that in the US, girls in poor neighborhoods get an inferior education. Being open minded to different people and their cultures does not mean that we leave our judgement of right and wrong behind. And I don't care what country you come from or what religious background, any rules or customs that intentionally deny persons their right to full expression of their rights, feelings, aspirations, and abilities is wrong.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
I have gather some information from the net having read some of the posts here.
Female Circumcision is NOT illegal in Egypt.
Until 1997 it was practiced and not spoken off. The US news network CNN, while in Cairo covering the UN women's conference did a small report on this matter. A young girl was seen being circumcised by the local barber. By all accounts it was a terrifying ordeal for the young girl and the viewers. Egypt proceeded to take CNN to court, this action was unsuccessful. The Father of the girl was arrested and charged with mutilating his child. Then released when the Mufti(?) of Egypt declared that the practice is NOT illegal. The Egyptian government proceeded to debate the matter and prepare a law to pass outlawing the practice. They did not, in fact they outlawed female circumcision if done OUTSIDE a government hospital. It continues to this day.
As to the article I have only reported what was written. Having done so my opinion of Egypt and it's men is tainted. Debbie may do her utmost to say they are no different to Australians, but I don't buy it. I do admire Debbie for standing up for what she thinks is true based on a few weeks vacation or maybe more visits I am unsure. I would imagine that this thread is now about Arab men in general and not Egyptian.
Cath
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
It seems this topic has strayed far from it's original intent of discussing the safety of western women travelling in Middle Eastern countries, particularly Egypt. On that topic, I had no problems whatsoever on my trip to Egypt and found the people I met to be very pleasent and friendly, I generally carried on at least short conversations with anyone who asked where I was from etc. and simply moved on and said goodbye if I felt at all uncomfortable. I was never followed or touched. I should note that I was never alone, although frequently with just one other woman traveller.
As for the discussion about male/female relations in the middle east I am concerned to see the amount of information being tossed about as fact without any reference to sources (nice to see that Cath has done some research on the net since the topic began though). I read this and don't know what to believe and I think some clarification of where people are getting their information from would improve the value of this discussion.
I am glad to see statements from both Debbie and Johnny warning us to get off our cultural high horse. Although many of us likely feel as Joan stated that "rules or customs that intentionally deny persons their right(s)" are wrong it is not for travellers to impose there own beliefs on the countries they are visiting.
While I believe that we now live in a world community and respect people who choose to be active in promoting human rights within their own as well as foreign cultures I still firmly believe that as tourists our resposibility is to respect the customs of the country we are visiting. Whether we agree with them or not.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
It seems this topic has strayed far from it's original intent of discussing the safety of western women travelling in Middle Eastern countries, particularly Egypt. On that topic, I had no problems whatsoever on my trip to Egypt and found the people I met to be very pleasent and friendly, I generally carried on at least short conversations with anyone who asked where I was from etc. and simply moved on and said goodbye if I felt at all uncomfortable. I was never followed or touched. I should note that I was never alone, although frequently with just one other woman traveller.
As for the discussion about male/female relations in the middle east I am concerned to see the amount of information being tossed about as fact without any reference to sources (nice to see that Cath has done some research on the net since the topic began though). I read this and don't know what to believe and I think some clarification of where people are getting their information from would improve the value of this discussion.
I am glad to see statements from both Debbie and Johnny warning us to get off our cultural high horse. Although many of us likely feel as Joan stated that "rules or customs that intentionally deny persons their right(s)" are wrong it is not for travellers to impose there own beliefs on the countries they are visiting.
While I believe that we now live in a world community and respect people who choose to be active in promoting human rights within their own as well as foreign cultures I still firmly believe that as tourists our resposibility is to respect the customs of the country we are visiting. Whether we agree with them or not.
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
Sorry for posting twice, technical difficulties!
Re: Women-Arab Men - Safe?
This thread is getting hard to follow for new readers and for those who are active in this discussion. I have closed this forum and refer you all to the second form opened to continue this topic.
Marty