I have gather some information from the net having read some of the posts here.
Female Circumcision is NOT illegal in Egypt.
Until 1997 it was practiced and not spoken off. The US news network CNN, while in Cairo covering the UN women's conference did a small report on this matter. A young girl was seen being circumcised by the local barber. By all accounts it was a terrifying ordeal for the young girl and the viewers. Egypt proceeded to take CNN to court, this action was unsuccessful. The Father of the girl was arrested and charged with mutilating his child. Then released when the Mufti(?) of Egypt declared that the practice is NOT illegal. The Egyptian government proceeded to debate the matter and prepare a law to pass outlawing the practice. They did not, in fact they outlawed female circumcision if done OUTSIDE a government hospital. It continues to this day.
As to the article I have only reported what was written. Having done so my opinion of Egypt and it's men is tainted. Debbie may do her utmost to say they are no different to Australians, but I don't buy it. I do admire Debbie for standing up for what she thinks is true based on a few weeks vacation or maybe more visits I am unsure. I would imagine that this thread is now about Arab men in general and not Egyptian.
Cath
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
(Posted By Christine M) September 27 2000
It seems this topic has strayed far from it's original intent of discussing the safety of western women travelling in Middle Eastern countries, particularly Egypt. On that topic, I had no problems whatsoever on my trip to Egypt and found the people I met to be very pleasent and friendly, I generally carried on at least short conversations with anyone who asked where I was from etc. and simply moved on and said goodbye if I felt at all uncomfortable. I was never followed or touched. I should note that I was never alone, although frequently with just one other woman traveller.
As for the discussion about male/female relations in the middle east I am concerned to see the amount of information being tossed about as fact without any reference to sources (nice to see that Cath has done some research on the net since the topic began though). I read this and don't know what to believe and I think some clarification of where people are getting their information from would improve the value of this discussion.
I am glad to see statements from both Debbie and Johnny warning us to get off our cultural high horse. Although many of us likely feel as Joan stated that "rules or customs that intentionally deny persons their right(s)" are wrong it is not for travellers to impose there own beliefs on the countries they are visiting.
While I believe that we now live in a world community and respect people who choose to be active in promoting human rights within their own as well as foreign cultures I still firmly believe that as tourists our resposibility is to respect the customs of the country we are visiting. Whether we agree with them or not.
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
Why did you close the forum? I was enjoying this debate and think it should be re-opened.
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
Dear Watching,
I have decided to close the first thread as the posts were too many to follow at any one time. By opening the second I have allowed a follow up forum with fewer posts.
The first thread has not yet been locked but this will be done soon, whereas posts for this thread will only be accepted on the (2) fourm.
Marty
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
With reference to (FC)I think the issue here is whether we sit back and wait for these cultures to discover for themselves that bad customs need to be stopped or actively engaged in working towards stopping practices that western countries deemed to be inhumane.
I personally think that there is nothing wrong to at least raise the concern to these cultures, influence the young, open minded,
educated people and to encourage these cultures to see that some of these practices hurt people. You can be certain that the people that benefit from it will be thankful for it.
However I do NOT condone foreigners entering countries such as Egypt and preaching the preach of the West. I stand by all the above and would add that change should COME FROM WITHIN,not forced on by outsiders. Look at the mess we made of South America with our so called 'good intensions'
Rick
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
I refer all readers who would like more information about this subject to follow the link at the end.
A cultural not a religious practice:
Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) is an destructive, invasive procedure that is usually performed on girls before puberty. Part or all of the clitoris is surgically removed. This leaves them with reduced or no sexual feeling. Orgasms are sometimes impossible to experience later in life. Many health problems result from the surgery.
FGM originated in Africa. It was, and remains, a cultural, not a religious practice.
Among individuals and groups opposed to the mutilation, it is seen as a method of reducing the sexual response of women in order to make them less likely to become sexually active before marriage or to seek an extra-marital affair after marriage.
To some who promote the operation, it is seen as a cultural requirement that has health benefits and makes women more physically beautiful. These views are not shared by the rest of the world.
The operation is forced on approximately 6,000 girls per day, worldwide -- about one every 15 seconds. Since FGM is practiced when the girls are young, they are unable to give their informed consent.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
Haven't we lost our way alittle on this subject?
If we are to condemn other cultures because they do not match up to our own then why do we want to travel there?
Yet we are happy to live in our own little parts of the world with domestic violence, rape ,murders etc & this is OK?
No, I do not condone FC & have spoken to Egyptians about this myself, they tell me it is generally done by the less educated of the population. So perhaps education & demonstation of good morals from visting women will perhaps make an impression on these people? I have no concrete answer.
Each year millions of male babies are circumcised, some with no anaesthetic ( for health & religious beliefs) & yet I hear no one crying for their welfare. As they are babies , of course they haven't given their consent. Is this double standards?
My suggestion is, if you really wish to visit one of these countries....do so, see for yourself. Then make your decision.
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
Hi
I clicked onto this forum, to try and get some information about being a female tourist in the middle east, but couldn't help but get absorbed in the female circumcision debate as this is a topic that we studied at college. The discussion started about arab men so I thought I would point out that FC is not an arabic tradition but existed in Africa long before the arabs arrived there. Also FC is not necessarily performed by men, but is often forced on a girl by her older female relatives who believe it protects her feminine aspect. However it does exist in societies that are dominated by men, so they are certainly not blameless. No society is static so traditions such as this can change, but as foreigners, anywhere in the world, we should be careful that we do not appear to be trying change people in our image. This can often cause a severe backlash against 'westernization' which can lead to such practices becoming entrenched.
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
I want to ask a question that refers to the intention of the original post. If people want to discuss FC then surely a new thread should be started.
I am travelling on the BTP tour at the beginning of February 2001 with my very long term girlfriend. We are travelling round the world for half a year and you'll appreciate that my main concern apart from having a good time is the safety of and my responsiblity toward my girlfriend.
I need to know if in anyone could qualify the statement that these 'advances toward women are less if accompanied by a 'male friend''
I shall be with her all the time and never leave her side (choice not paranoia). It will not stop us travelling to Egypt but it would be useful for us to prepare if someone could suggest what sort of environment a boy-girl partnership would create around these minority of Egyptian men.
Thanks!
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
I've been to Egypt with my then girlfriend and now my wife. She was constantly aware of the glaring and the over enthusiastic attention she often received. But she found it no different to a trip we did of Russia.
We also did the BTP but not the the trekking in the desert. The group was cool and in all, eleven girls, and no reports of what this forum would have you believe. It IS safe. And if, as this forum shows, there are those considering canceling a trip because of the 'male female' worries, well maybe it's best. I wouldn
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
(I was the one who asked the question, I have a different name because I have registered now!)
Cheers Keith for your valued response.
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
I travelled to Egypt on my own & spent some time in Cairo alone. I happily wandered the streets during the day & at night. The only hassles I recieved was a chap who veered across the path to brush ( hardly even touched) against my hip .
Even when I joined up with my tour(with IT) I was often alone when "Amy" stopped as I like to walk. By the way the majority of the tour were female some of whom were travelling alone.
I had read up well on what clothing was considered ok. Most of all I went with an open mind & heart. I was welcomed in by people & now I still keep in touch with an Egyptian family who call me one of their own.I can't wait for my next visit.
A group of my friends travelled to Egypt about this time last year....6 women. They had a great time & are hoping to return one day......so Egypt can't be that bad can it?
[This message has been edited by Debbie Comini (edited September 29, 2000).]
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
I returned from the Kingdoms of the Nile trip yesterday. I did plenty of walking around on my own in Cairo, Luxor and Aswan and not once did I feel unsafe. I caught the Metro alone in Cairo and caught taxis alone also. No-one on my tour so much as mentioned being hassled by the Egyptian men. Yes, it does get tiring at times (and added to that the heat makes people cranky) and sometimes you wanted a break (especially in Luxor where I found the attention a bit more often than other places) but there was no situation that ignoring the perpetrator didn't solve. I agree with what Keith said, if you are the sort of person who would cancel a holiday because of this you are probably not an ImTrav sort of traveller and you are better to stay home.
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
Knowledge is the breakfast of the mind.
Dave
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
Sorry - forgot to add to my last reply that I am a blonde, western, female.
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
I have removed the post titled (
Arab Women-Western Men)
Posted by KFC on 10th Oct:
This post was offensive and not within our terms and conditions of posting to these forums.
MARTY
[b]
Imaginative Traveller Online[/b]
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
There are not many places in this world, from New York to New Zealand, where an attractive woman won't get looks and sometimes more. We women learn to deal with these things before we ever reach the middle east.
It is the same everywhere, dress conservatively, be cordial but not overly friendly, be fair, be firm and be careful, and you will do just fine.
The middle eastern man is taught to have great respect for his mother (woman), but also lives with a totally different view of "immorality" in women. I have found them to be very respectful when respect is earned. Just like anywhere, usually if you act disrespectfully, that is the way you will be treated.
Rape is not a common occurance in Egypt as it is so many places, so don't be afraid of these "admiring glances" or comments, like "AH, BEAUTIFUL American/Australian/English, etc. WOMAN!" said with those big, glowing smiles.
The Egyptian's are very friendly people and I love them all. Women, even plain, conservative women will be given these admiring looks and comments, but if you are "in line" then they are harmless and often meant to just give a smile. The Egyptians always want to do something, "just for you," and mean no harm (but is usually a ploy for Bakshesh (tip). While occasionally, but rarely, unpleasant situations do occur wherever humans exist, you are worrying over nothing if this is a big concern.
Hassles are in the form of merchants and beggars, although I have to say that the beggars seem to diminish more with each trip. Last February, I was there for weeks and wasn't approached ONCE uninvited.
I too have made so many friends amongst the locals that I usually travel there alone now, meeting up with friends and often staying in their homes. I go about Cairo alone sometimes without the first problem. In fact, I can tell you that Cairo is a much SAFER city, for male or female, than any large American city I can think of (me being American). I have become familiar enough with being there that my obvious "tourist" stamp on my forehead apparently has disappeared, as I am no longer hassled at all.
However, having said that, I reflect back on some of my first visits, when everything was new and my "tourist status" was obvious. It was a whole other thing then, as the hassles were so consistent that I was exhausted from dealing with them and happy to come home (3 weeks there). Still I only had one "advance" made that would have been a problem, had I not been with a group. BTW, "tourist" police are everywhere there are tourist sites, so that is a safety factor in itself.
Forget worrying about your girlfriend if you are going to be with her. This is much ado about nothing, unless she has lived on a deserted island all her life. [img]http://www.imaginative-traveller.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
We found no problems with Arab men on our middle east tour. We suggest you all go and experience this fantastic part of the world.
Re: Women-Arab Men -Safe? (Second Forum)
Just got home and what a trip! Thanks Imaginative Travel and all staff in Egypt. Not one moment did I feel concerned about my safety. Or about being a woman. I walked alone during the day. I spent evenings in the company of other female group members and I have nothing to report. I could go on for days about the glares and offers we had, but that was part and parcel of the experience.
Would do it again tomorrow.
Angelfire22@hotmail.com